vaccine schedule / Dodds question

>
>> Apparently, she recommends doing vaccine antibody titers for distemper
>> and parvovirus yearly. I looked up titers to find if that was the
>> same thing as a shot and it said its a blood test. Does this mean
>> they test to see how much of the vaccine is in the dog and then judge
>> accordingly if they should give them more of the vaccine? If not,
>> what does this mean?
>
> from http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/titer_test.htm:
>

great website, thanks for the link.


> The term "titer" refers to the strength or concentration of a substance
> in a solution. When testing vaccine titers in dogs, a veterinarian takes
> a blood sample from a dog and has the blood tested for the presence and
> strength of the dog's immunological response to a viral disease. If the
> dog demonstrates satisfactory levels of vaccine titers, the dog is
> considered sufficiently immune to the disease, or possessing good
> "immunologic memory," and not in need of further vaccination against the
> disease at that time.
>
>
> I had a titer test years ago for Rubella as I was vaccinated during a
> questionable time period for the vaccine. I was found to not be immune
> and given the vaccine immediately after the birth of my 1st baby. I had
> refused the vaccine because I also feel less is more, unless you have
> proof a vaccine is needed. I think titering is much better for dogs, and
> wish they would do it on people more often, too.
>

I will definately be talking to my vet about doing titer tests. I'd hate to
over vaccinate my dogs and this seems like a great way to be sure you don't
do that.

thanks again for the easily understandable answer and link!
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

Lynne said in
rec.pets.dogs.health:

[quote from canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com snipped]
> If the
> dog demonstrates satisfactory levels of vaccine titers, the
> dog is considered sufficiently immune to the disease, or
> possessing good "immunologic memory," and not in need of
> further vaccination against the disease at that time.

The main problem I see with titering is knowing what
"sufficiently" means, or in knowing what levels of immunity
indicators are required for each disease. And can these levels
be applied generally?

A vet student friend contends that titering is OK, as long as
your dog is one of only a few having it done. He said that once
the number of titered dogs goes above 30% in a geographical
area, problems will be seen.

Generally, I'm all for titering, what with vaccinations being a
probable seizure trigger.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

"MauiJNP" wrote in message:

> What vaccines/boosters schedules do others follow?

Personally, I titer the dogs, and only booster for Distemper/Parvo if
necessary. Especially important for Pan, as Danes are prone to vaccinosis.

> I want to do what's best for my dogs and I want to make sure I have
all
> the info before proceeding. I

There is a lot of good information out there on vaccine reactions, and the
need for yearly vaccinations. I am pulling stuff out of Khan's files; we
spoke with the vet when we decided to titer instead of vaccinate, and she
was totally okay with that.

http://www.colovma.com/associations/2956/files/Small%20Animal%20Vaccin...0Guidel
http://www.aahanet.org/About_aaha/vaccine_guidelines06.pdf

The only PITA is that I keep getting reminders about how the dogs are due
for their annual vaccines, although they have been titered.

Suja
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:08:58 -0500, "MauiJNP" wrote:

> What vaccines/boosters schedules do others follow? Maui had his "puppy
>shots" and then a one year booster of rabies and DHPP (no lepto). His
>rabies shot is good for 2 years according to the vet but she recommended
>getting the others done yearly (DHPP, no lepto). I thought I remembered a
>lot of people say they follow Dr. Jean Dodds vaccine schedule so I looked
>that up to see what it says. http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm
>
> Apparently, she recommends doing vaccine antibody titers for distemper
>and parvovirus yearly. I looked up titers to find if that was the same
>thing as a shot and it said its a blood test. Does this mean they test to
>see how much of the vaccine is in the dog and then judge accordingly if they
>should give them more of the vaccine? If not, what does this mean?
>
> I want to do what's best for my dogs and I want to make sure I have all
>the info before proceeding. I tried finding a "dummies" book on dog
>vaccines and came up with a book called "Complete Idiots guide to getting
>and owning a dog" which has a chapter on health (with a mention of
>vaccines). Did anyone ever read it? Is it any good? If not, is there any
>other books that explain it simply. Or maybe a good website? I am pretty
>clueless science/biology-wise.

I don't do titers; I follow the major veterinary schools' protocol,
which is to vaccinate for parvo and distemper every 3 years. The main
reason I do this instead of titers is because titers are prohibitively
expensive for the number of dogs we usually have around. Rabies is
whatever your state law says. Dogs that have had autoimmune illnesses
or seizures, or dogs over 10, do not get vaccinated. I do the same
thing with cats.

Mustang Sally
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

>
>> What vaccines/boosters schedules do others follow?
>
> Personally, I titer the dogs, and only booster for Distemper/Parvo if
> necessary. Especially important for Pan, as Danes are prone to
> vaccinosis.
>
>> I want to do what's best for my dogs and I want to make sure I have
> all
>> the info before proceeding. I
>
> There is a lot of good information out there on vaccine reactions, and the
> need for yearly vaccinations. I am pulling stuff out of Khan's files; we
> spoke with the vet when we decided to titer instead of vaccinate, and she
> was totally okay with that.
>
> http://www.colovma.com/associations/2956/files/Small%20Animal%20Vaccin...0Guidel
> http://www.aahanet.org/About_aaha/vaccine_guidelines06.pdf
>

thanks for the info and links. I bookmarked them and will get a chance to
read them after Cali's agility class tonight.


> The only PITA is that I keep getting reminders about how the dogs are due
> for their annual vaccines, although they have been titered.
>

yeah, thats sounds like a waste of paper and postage.
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

"Rocky" wrote in message

> The main problem I see with titering is knowing what
> "sufficiently" means, or in knowing what levels of immunity
> indicators are required for each disease. And can these levels
> be applied generally?

.........True they cannot test for memory cells, but they're only part of the
equation and if a dog has an antibody response to a vaccine, they've made
memory cells. I'll give you Christie's page also. It's a good synopsis as
to how the whole thing works.
http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm

........And no, immunizations won't work if vets routinely pay no attention
to the dog's health when they come in for a shot. A sick dog should not be
vaccinated. And sick means sickness like bad allergy problems, not just
prostrate with illness. Allergies indicate immune system dysfunction, which
is the part you're asking to sit up and take notice when it's challenged
with an antigen. I don't believe in the multi-valent shots either. I think
that's asking the immune system to do too much all at once, and if there's
any reason for general vaccine failure in the canine community it's probably
that. There are only a few vaccines that are really necessary and doing
them singly will insure the immune system responds well.

> A vet student friend contends that titering is OK, as long as
> your dog is one of only a few having it done. He said that once
> the number of titered dogs goes above 30% in a geographical
> area, problems will be seen.

........OK, next time you see your friend, make him explain this thoroughly.
I'm sure he hasn't thought this through, that it's just regurgitation from
a vet professor. It literally makes no sense and sounds like fear
propaganda. Oh, and ask your friend if he's had his immunizations lately,
or oh, wait, did he only get them as a kid? Hmmmmmm, how come? Aren't they
going to *wear off* any day now?

buglady
take out the dog before replying
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

"MauiJNP" wrote in message

> What vaccines/boosters schedules do others follow? Maui had his
"puppy
> shots" and then a one year booster of rabies and DHPP (no lepto). His
> rabies shot is good for 2 years according to the vet
.......There is no rabies shot labeled for 2 years. They're either 1 yr or 3
yr and they're the same vaccine. It's probably a 3 yr shot and the vet is
just telling you 2. You really only need ONE shot, but because rabies is
fatal, they give a *booster* a year later to make sure that one or the other
of the shots actually worked. It's one thing to have the philosophy that a
rabies vax should happen every 2 yrs (and no vet college would support that
practice), but quite another to out and out tell a lie. This whole issue
rather infuriates me. It's really not that hard to explain to people.
If the dog is fully immunized there's nothing to *boost*. It just doesn't
work that way. Please keep in mind that rabies is a human health problem
and in the end the local Public Health Authority doesn't really care if
your pet gets excess rabies shots or whether it does them any harm. They're
concerned about people, not animals. In the US, rabies is rarely
transmitted by pets anyway, mostly by wild animals, even though there's a
goodly portion of unvaccinated pets out there. Vaccinating your pet every
year with a rabies shot will not get those unvaccinated dogs immunized.

........Here's a good page for discussion of vaccines, boosters, titers and
how it works. Links to discussion on boosters is at upper right of page:
http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm
(note - there's a typo in the word for the immune response to a foreign
antigen - it should be seroconversion - I'm not mentioning this to be picky
as if you want to read more you'll need the correct term.)

Dr. Jean Dodds vaccine schedule so I looked
> that up to see what it says. http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

........Here's the AAHA recommendations fresh off the press for this year:
http://www.aahanet.org/About_aaha/About_Guidelines_Canine06.html

...........I suggest you make a copy of this and drop it off for your vet to
read. Dr. Schultz has been doing studies on vaccines for yrs and current
studies show parvo vaccines can last 7 yrs (or more).

........There was recently a discussion on another board about vaccine
issues. Turns out all the vets in this one area agreed to start charging 3X
as much for some vaccines which are now recommended for every 3 yrs instead
of yearly. They were worried about their income. AFAIC they're just
fueling the fires for the fraction of the people who think vets are only in
it for the money. Sounds suspiciously like the gas companies. :-(

> Apparently, she recommends doing vaccine antibody titers for distemper
> and parvovirus yearly.
...........Certainly if you want backup lab work you can do this. BUT I
really don't think it's necesary. And the rabies titer is big bucks. Don't
remember what the parvo titer costs. The real way to use titers is to draw
a blood sample for a titer test before getting a vax, vax, and get a blood
sample a few weeks later. If the dog had a low titer before vaccination,
but responded to the vaccine by making antibodies to the disease (indicated
by the difference in the titer reading) then the dog is immunized and you
can forget about doing yearly titers. Tell me, did you have immunizations
as a child? Do you still get them yearly? Nope, didn't think so. Doesn't
work any differently with dogs.

a book called "Complete Idiots guide to getting
> and owning a dog" which has a chapter on health (with a mention of
> vaccines). Did anyone ever read it? Is it any good?

.........Haven't read that book. There is a Dogs for Dummies book written by
Gina Spadafori. I haven't read this one either, but it's co-authored by a
vet also.
http://www.petconnection.com/bookstore.php

HTH
buglady
take out the dog before replying
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

> Please keep in mind that rabies is a human health problem
> and in the end the local Public Health Authority doesn't really care if
> your pet gets excess rabies shots or whether it does them any harm.
> They're
> concerned about people, not animals. In the US, rabies is rarely
> transmitted by pets anyway, mostly by wild animals, even though there's a
> goodly portion of unvaccinated pets out there. Vaccinating your pet every
> year with a rabies shot will not get those unvaccinated dogs immunized.

Every year is ridiculous after that initial booster.

We process specimens for the health department for rabies testing (there is
no lovely way to say that. It's not pretty). Most are bats or racoons. Some
are other animals who came into contact with humans and are questionable.
Few are cats. Most are negative - almost all are wild animals.
Unfortunately, we processed a 16 year old cat last week that was an
indoor/outdoor cat. Had been immunized as a very young cat but none since.
The cat jumped out at a person walking their small dog past the house and
bit the person severely. The cat died shortly after. We just were notified
today that the cat was positive for rabies.

Our state is a 1/3 rabies law state (1 year booster after first vaccination,
then once every 3 years). The 1 and 3 year is the same med drawn into the
syringe. It's labeled one or three based on law. But I'd rather be safe than
sorry. My story doesn't mean much for this thread, but yikes - I'm still
floored by this. Feel bad for the bite victim. The owners lost their cat and
are responsible. Not good feelings over there I'm sure.
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

"Sharon Too" wrote in message

> We process specimens for the health department for rabies testing (there
is
> no lovely way to say that. It's not pretty).
........Do you have special facilities? In most places they're sent to a
state facility. Does each county in your state do this?

Most are bats or racoons. Some
> are other animals who came into contact with humans and are questionable.
> Few are cats. Most are negative - almost all are wild animals.

..........Yep. Which is not to say that rabies is not a huge problem in
dogs/cats in other countries - India, South America and look what China
just did......shudder.

> Unfortunately, we processed a 16 year old cat last week that was an
> indoor/outdoor cat. Had been immunized as a very young cat but none since.
> The cat jumped out at a person walking their small dog past the house and
> bit the person severely. The cat died shortly after. We just were notified
> today that the cat was positive for rabies.

......It certainly isn't impossible for a pet to get rabies. I wonder if the
2 shot rule works for cats like it does for dogs. That is, no dogs with at
least 2 shots have been known to get rabies.

buglady
take out the dog before replying
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

> .......Do you have special facilities? In most places they're sent to a
> state facility. Does each county in your state do this?

We prepare the speciman, then the health department picks it up and sends it
to a facility in the state capital for the actual testing.

> .....It certainly isn't impossible for a pet to get rabies. I wonder if
> the
> 2 shot rule works for cats like it does for dogs. That is, no dogs with
> at
> least 2 shots have been known to get rabies.

I think we'll never know. Not sure any lab would go through testing on dogs
to find out.
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

>
> I had my dog's boosters done every 3 years and now that hes 12 I don't
> have them
> done except a year ago he had a homeopathic booster as I didn't want
> him getting
> chemicals at an old age.
>
>
> Having said that my previous dog at age around 7 got the pavro virus
> which she
> survived.It is not a very nice virus and the dog was very sick.


wow, that doesn't sound fun at all. glad to hear she survived. had she
gotten the vaccine for parvo before getting the disease? if so, how long
before it?
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

>> What vaccines/boosters schedules do others follow? Maui had his
> "puppy
>> shots" and then a one year booster of rabies and DHPP (no lepto). His
>> rabies shot is good for 2 years according to the vet
> ......There is no rabies shot labeled for 2 years. They're either 1 yr or
> 3
> yr and they're the same vaccine. It's probably a 3 yr shot and the vet is
> just telling you 2.

I wonder why the vet would do that. I guess I should check again to see
what the paperwork says. I am 99% sure she said 2 years (in person) but she
did give me a rabies certificate which has the date on it. Hopefully the
vet isn't lying to me, just made a mistake.



>You really only need ONE shot, but because rabies is
> fatal, they give a *booster* a year later to make sure that one or the
> other
> of the shots actually worked. It's one thing to have the philosophy that
> a
> rabies vax should happen every 2 yrs (and no vet college would support
> that
> practice), but quite another to out and out tell a lie. This whole issue
> rather infuriates me. It's really not that hard to explain to people.
> If the dog is fully immunized there's nothing to *boost*. It just doesn't
> work that way. Please keep in mind that rabies is a human health problem
> and in the end the local Public Health Authority doesn't really care if
> your pet gets excess rabies shots or whether it does them any harm.
> They're
> concerned about people, not animals. In the US, rabies is rarely
> transmitted by pets anyway, mostly by wild animals, even though there's a
> goodly portion of unvaccinated pets out there. Vaccinating your pet every
> year with a rabies shot will not get those unvaccinated dogs immunized.
>
> .......Here's a good page for discussion of vaccines, boosters, titers and
> how it works. Links to discussion on boosters is at upper right of page:
> http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm

thanks for the link, I will check it out.

> (note - there's a typo in the word for the immune response to a foreign
> antigen - it should be seroconversion - I'm not mentioning this to be
> picky
> as if you want to read more you'll need the correct term.)
>
> Dr. Jean Dodds vaccine schedule so I looked
>> that up to see what it says. http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm
>
> .......Here's the AAHA recommendations fresh off the press for this year:
> http://www.aahanet.org/About_aaha/About_Guidelines_Canine06.html
>

another good one, thanks!

> ..........I suggest you make a copy of this and drop it off for your vet
> to
> read. Dr. Schultz has been doing studies on vaccines for yrs and current
> studies show parvo vaccines can last 7 yrs (or more).
>

sounds good, I will read this and possibly take it with me when I go to the
vet


> .......There was recently a discussion on another board about vaccine
> issues. Turns out all the vets in this one area agreed to start charging
> 3X
> as much for some vaccines which are now recommended for every 3 yrs
> instead
> of yearly. They were worried about their income. AFAIC they're just
> fueling the fires for the fraction of the people who think vets are only
> in
> it for the money. Sounds suspiciously like the gas companies. :-(
>
>> Apparently, she recommends doing vaccine antibody titers for
>> distemper
>> and parvovirus yearly.
> ..........Certainly if you want backup lab work you can do this. BUT I
> really don't think it's necesary. And the rabies titer is big bucks.
> Don't
> remember what the parvo titer costs. The real way to use titers is to
> draw
> a blood sample for a titer test before getting a vax, vax, and get a blood
> sample a few weeks later. If the dog had a low titer before vaccination,
> but responded to the vaccine by making antibodies to the disease
> (indicated
> by the difference in the titer reading) then the dog is immunized and you
> can forget about doing yearly titers. Tell me, did you have immunizations
> as a child? Do you still get them yearly? Nope, didn't think so.
> Doesn't
> work any differently with dogs.
>
> a book called "Complete Idiots guide to getting
>> and owning a dog" which has a chapter on health (with a mention of
>> vaccines). Did anyone ever read it? Is it any good?
>
> ........Haven't read that book. There is a Dogs for Dummies book written
> by
> Gina Spadafori. I haven't read this one either, but it's co-authored by a
> vet also.
> http://www.petconnection.com/bookstore.php
>
> HTH
> buglady
> take out the dog before replying
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question 

"MauiJNP" wrote in message

> I wonder why the vet would do that. I guess I should check again to see
> what the paperwork says. I am 99% sure she said 2 years (in person) but
she
> did give me a rabies certificate which has the date on it. Hopefully the
> vet isn't lying to me, just made a mistake.

........From talking to some vets, they feel that people don't get around to
getting vaccinations on a regular schedule and keep putting them off, so
perhaps she thought it would take you a yr to get in for the shot. This
totally ignores the fact that there's responsible pet owners out there who
then end up with extra shots. Some vets just don't trust the 3 yr idea.
For years (with NO scientific evidence to support the idea - it was just
something that suddenly happened - mostly in reaction to the introduction of
parvo into the canine community) they gave yearly shots and apparently it's
too much for them to suddenly go to 3 yr., even though the recommendations
of 3 yrs has been in place a while. Of course the other issue appears to
be........money.

.........The other possibility is that your county requires a rabies shot
every 2 yrs and she was telling you what the LAW requires, not how long the
shot lasts. You also need to check what your state laws say. Until Jan of
this yr, my county required rabies every year. Before that time dogs were
getting shot up every yr with 3 yr vaccines. The state law was 3 yrs, but
county law supercedes that. This yr the state of FL required the counties
to recognize that a 3 yr shot lasts 3 yrs. I think they're trying to get
rabies laws more uniform across the US (or at least current with science)
and it could be that this has passed in all the states, but I'm not sure.

.......So, if you lived in my county and your dog had never had a rabies vax,
you'd be required to get a vax 2 yrs in a row, then the 3 yr vaccine would
be honored - which would be the 2nd shot. This may seem confusing, but as I
mentioned earlier, the rabies *booster* 1 yr after the first vaccine is just
to make sure that one or the other of the shots worked and that your dog is
fully immunized as soon as possible.

............You say you're not much of a science person, so I'm curious, is
this as clear as mud or is it understandable? A vet was complaining that
people end up confused. My gripe was they should give them a piece of paper
that explains it if the verbal explanation doesn't seem to cut it.
Personally I think the problem is that they have trouble justifying
previously requiring yearly shots and now backing off of that. ;-0)

buglady
take out the dog before replying
 >> Stay informed about: vaccine schedule / Dodds question